"J's Minmaxing"//Thyandis Campaign

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sat Jan 21, 2012 7:25 am

Seriously. The weekly Saturday game I used to play in a month or so back is starting up again, and we're changing to D&D. I am ecstatic, and am playing a Bard under the influence of Soul Music, Blues Brothers, and vague memories of Pick of Destiny.

One of the other guys decided to play a wizard. An old one, so he's getting the usual -Phys, +Mental stats.

The DM asked the group if they were ok, as it seems to him like a "Benefit (TM)," and it seems that we all said "Yeah, it's fine, so long as we get Benefits (TM) too."

So we got word back tonight, J is getting the stat adjustments, and 10k gold. We all get 50k (upper limit of Medium items).

I... literally don't know what I should buy. We're currently restricted to PHB and DMG.

Lokathor · Post by **Lokathor** » Sat Jan 21, 2012 7:42 am

You didn't mention a starting level.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sat Jan 21, 2012 7:44 am

Oh, right, 6th.

PhoneLobster · Post by **PhoneLobster** » Sat Jan 21, 2012 8:09 am

Well the Old Wizard is gaining +2 to three attributes in return for -2 to three attributes. And -40,000 gold.

So INTERESTINGLY at RETAIL MARKET PRICE you can buy a FULL SET of SIX +2 attribute bonus items like Cloaks of Charisma and Gloves of Dexterity. They only cost 4,000 each and are MINOR items well under the cap.

And that would net you a +2 on double the number of attributes, no penalties to any of them and STILL leave you with 16,000 gold MORE than the elderly wizard with his stat penalties and measly little 10,000 gold total compared to your 26,000 gp. A remaining total that interestingly still allows you to do the same thing again.

Then everyone could sit there in awkward silence for about 2 minutes before the GM declares he needs to look at his math for a second...

PS Retail prices. FULL Retail Prices.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sat Jan 21, 2012 8:14 am

Yeah, I really don't feel like being a prick like that.

PhoneLobster · Post by **PhoneLobster** » Sat Jan 21, 2012 8:31 am

Unfortunately the only way you WON'T end up being a prick EXACTLY like that is to MASSIVELY low ball your own item selection.

I'm talking crazy town like convincing the GM to let you break his Medium cap and blow ALL your money on something monumentally crappy like a Ring of Shooting Stars level of self nerfage.

If you simple point out quietly to the GM the rather... interesting effects of just buying some cheap low level stat upgrade items like everyone with half a brain frequently spends spare cash on, you MIGHT get a scenario where you don't get FORCED to be a prick by having 40k extra gold. 40k extra gold EACH that you ALL have to try and "not be a prick" with. That's like 5 rings of shooting stars around that table.

But if you DO want to seriously low ball it there are piles of shite overpriced items you can buy and some of them even have minor comedic value. You know, crap like Rings of Meld into Stone, rods of Metal Detection, portable holes, you know, crap. Do it right and with that extra 40k you will STILL accidentally "be a prick" by having an endless parade of bullshit comedic non-abilities that you CONSTANTLY pull out to hilariously confuse the GM and his carefully planned scenarios.

Or, bugger it, you could just use the spare 40k to buy 80 Feather Token Whips. I mean, who could complain, they are from nearly the very bottom of the magic items barrel for power and are only single use! Ideally all at once.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sat Jan 21, 2012 8:36 am

Yeah, I sent an email to the DM to bring it to his attention.

Right now I have:

+1 Glamoured Chain Shirt
+2 Longsword
+1 Bow
60 Arrows
Quiver of (Ehlonnah)
3 Tree Tokens
1 Swan Token
1 Bird Token
MW Guitar
Heward's Handy Haversack
Gryphon Mount (Monster Manual has price for young and professional training)
Type 2 Bag of Holding
+4 Cloak of Charisma
2 Wands of Cure Light Wounds
Wand of Animal Messenger (because it's only 2,200g more expensive than the much more restricted Raven Figurine of Wondrous Power)
(other assorted items from PHB, bedroll, winter blankey, everburning torch, etc. I'll outline them, but I need to get to bed.)

Oh, and I ran the Leadership feat and an Awakened Dire Ape cohort (my drummer) by him. Awaiting feedback.

Basically the character idea is the likely-far-from-original Bard who occasionally has to flee town because he caused more damage/drank more beer than his gig rate/knocked up the watch guard's wife/daughter/caused a riot in the street/is wanted for lewd acts with a horse when he can't remember whether he committed them or not/etc. Hence the contingency items like tree tokens and such.

...I just realised the Gryphon can double as a roadie.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Sat Jan 21, 2012 9:02 am

Get 30,000 tindertwigs. Now you're only 20K up on him. At any moment, try to find a way to fit "use tindertwigs" into the solution. Or you could get 15,000 sunrods and basically look for excuses to use them for any or no reason.

Maybe make your guitar a +10 Guitar of Hard Rock (10,000GP), applying the bonus to Perform (Guitar) checks and also IIRC making it hilariously hard to break. I mean, it blows a huge wad of cash and isn't particularly useful or douchey, but still means you're clearly going to be awesome at making Perform checks.

Maybe buy drugs (BoVD has some, or you could buy Ambrosia from BoED or whatever) and huge amounts of booze.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sat Jan 21, 2012 9:08 am

yeah, i'm awaiting feedback on perform bonus items. may drop a + from my sword to afford a better perform+.

K · Post by K » Sat Jan 21, 2012 9:15 am

Get a Ring of Blinking, a Ring of Invisibility, and a Haversack.

Real power like walking through walls in combat and nearly perfect defense and stealth is always going to be better than an extra 5-10% of success or 5-10% defense.

ishy · Post by **ishy** » Sat Jan 21, 2012 9:18 am

PhoneLobster wrote:Well the Old Wizard is gaining +2 to three attributes in return for -2 to three attributes. And -40,000 gold.

Actually, it is a -3 to all physical attributes.
The list is this:


Age	total negative Stats	total positive stats
middle age	-1 Str, Dex, Con	+1 Int, Wis, Cha
old age	-3 Str, Dex, Con	+2 Int, Wis, Cha.
venerable age	-6 Str, Dex, Con	+3 Int, Wis, Cha.

PhoneLobster · Post by **PhoneLobster** » Sat Jan 21, 2012 9:25 am

ishy wrote: Actually,

Double actually I did make a mistake but by MY poorly referred to source it's...

At old age, -2 to Str, Dex, and Con; +1 to Int, Wis, and Cha.

And then that's cumulative with the previous modifiers, maybe, I dunno. It's not like it makes any sense or anyone cares.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sat Jan 21, 2012 3:56 pm

Yeah, GM just said "-2 physicals, +2 mentals, 10k"

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sun Jan 22, 2012 10:50 am

And the rest of us got 27500g. J seemed fine with it. The bonuses are basically untyped, so there is some advantage.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Mon Jan 23, 2012 6:24 am

So we did the first session, and it was a lot of fun playing a bard for the first time. Fen Gibson and his barbarian drummer cohort Lars seemed to have made some impression. I didn't realize just how purely buff oriented the bard class is, so it's definitely a new experience.

New books are possible to bring in by group unanimous vote.

So, what are your guys' suggestions for feats and prcs for bards? Keep in mind published works are the best bet for getting something in.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Mon Jan 23, 2012 8:55 am

Feats that are maybe useful-ish:
Words of Creation (BoED)
Dragonfire Inspiration (Fanboy Magic)
Draconic Aura (ditto)
Acrobatic Strike (PHB 2)
Arcane Flourish -> Accompaniment (ditto)
Battle Dancer (")
Combat Panache (likewise - only for the "Hurt someone, they take penalty==CHA to hit you for rest of combat" one)
Force of Personality (CAdv)
Green Ear (^)
Lingering Song (^)
Chant of Fortitude (^)
Lyric Spell (^)
Arcane Disciple (CDiv)
Captivating Melody (CGarbage)
Melodic Casting (^)
Unsettling Enchantment (^)
Chord of Distraction (CScoundrel)
Epic of the Lost King (^)
Snowflake Wardance (Cold Outside)
Haunting Melody (HoH)
Dragonsong (Draconomnomnomnicon)
Versatile Spellcaster (Races of the Fanboy)

Judging__Eagle · Post by **Judging__Eagle** » Mon Jan 23, 2012 11:12 am

If you get into "Words of Creation" shenanigans, stuff that I highly recommend for a buffing bard in general (the last time I had to help someone optimize a bard WoC was on the "must have list", although I bloody forget what WoC's laundry list of new bard powers were exactly).

found it, sort of: "

You can use Words of Creation to enhance Bardic Music. A Bard who has the Words of Creation feat can use these powerful words to enhance his Bardic Music ability as detailed below. When a bard uses the Words of Creation in this manner, it is extremely draining, and the bard takes 1d4 points of nonlethal damage for each rank in Perform required to produce the Bardic Music effect he is enhancing. (You suffer this damage on activation, not per round.) For example, if Jack Black uses the Words of Creation to double an Inspire Courage effect (minimum 3 ranks in Perform), he takes 3d4 points of nonlethal damage. For Inspire Courage, double the morale bonus on saving throws against charm and fear and the morale bonus on attack and weapon damage rolls (+2 at 1st level, +4 at 8th level, +6 at 14th level, +8 at 20th level).

"

I believe that getting a horn/trumpet provides double the Inspire Courage bonus for combat; but the bonus only lasts... 1 round after finishing, instead of the normal 3. Be prepared for your bard to Louis Armstrong their trumpet through the fight, while giving party members a doubles sized attack bonus. Fortunately extended perform checks don't have rules on stamina. Horns give a +1 to inspire courage, as a non-magical item, doubling the benefit at level 1, but limits the buff duration to 1 round after you stop, instead of the normal 5 rounds.

more links

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/ ... dbook?pg=1

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/ ... timization

inspire courage stuff
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards ... topic=9830

gen. bard stuff
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards ... pic=8284.0

Ravengm · Post by **Ravengm** » Mon Jan 23, 2012 10:03 pm

Subsonics is a useful flavor-feat, since it means you can be singling constantly without fear of detection.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sat Jan 28, 2012 9:18 pm

new question: The dm wants me to say what song I'm playing fir a given effect. So I need a (real life) song for Countersong used to end what I only knew as "the galloping plague."

I'm currently thinking Government Flu.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Sat Jan 28, 2012 9:51 pm

Prak_Anima wrote:new question: The dm wants me to say what song I'm playing fir a given effect. So I need a (real life) song for Countersong used to end what I only knew as "the galloping plague."

I'm currently thinking Government Flu.

I recommend you make all your songs Nightwish Songs. As for which one should be Countersong, it kind of depends on what you want for every other song.

K · Post by K » Sat Jan 28, 2012 11:35 pm

For Bard, I'd be tempted to focus on the spellcasting and not the songs and melee. Reserve feats for constant magic and a Heritage feat tree for abilities and extra spells known, and basic Spell Focus(Illusion or Enchantment or both since those are the only things you do in a level-appropriate way).

There are some feats to maintain concentration on spells and that's great for illusions, but for the life of me I can't remember them right now.

That being said, Snowflake Wardance and Arcane Strike seem required. Also Battle Caster so you can wear heavier armor and still cast spells (mithral fullplate ftw).

There are some other Cha feats that are good too. I like Goad, and some feats from the demon book and the devil book(there is one where you sell your soul to Asmodeus, but then people can't attack you unless they pass a save.). There is also one somewhere that lets you use Cha for Will instead of Wis.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sun Jan 29, 2012 12:38 am

I'd love to use heritage feats but so far as I can see, they all require a level of sorcerer.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Wed Feb 15, 2012 5:28 am

So, in the latest session, Fen decided that knowledge was worth risking his NG Bard status, and allowed himself to become lawful good so he could learn and understand the language of the original monks. The only real annoyance here is that the DM said my next level was automatically monk 1, due to what I learned.

So now Fen is an ex-bard6/Monk1.

His style is, of course, Kung Foley.

Hicks · Post by **Hicks** » Wed Feb 15, 2012 6:27 am

Is there a reason you couldn't get a scroll of comprehend languages, or taken a level of mindbender and pick up the mindsight feat, or anything else (like investing a single skill rank into speak languages, a bard class skill, or take the polygot feat) to not pick up a level of phb monk?

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Wed Feb 15, 2012 6:44 am

We were literally only there for 24 hours, and I decided that Fen wanted to spend his in the library? And he didn't have Comprehend Languages known. And he asked for a scroll of it, and no one had one.

I was considering mutliclassing out of bard so it's not a huge deal, I'm just disappointed there isn't an Ascetic Performer feat.